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[felis_ultharus]

You know, the problem with the religious right is that they only listen to their own kind, so it's impossible to point out how unbelievably wrong they are.

I mean, take the criticism that gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are destroying civilization. A short list of well-known men-who-liked-men and women-who-liked-women could include Sappho, Plato, Socrates, Agathon, Julius Caeser, Augustus Caeser, Emperor Hadrian, Richard the Lionhearted, King James I, King Louis XIII, Michelangelo -- half the Renaissance -- Christopher Marlowe, Lord Byron, Oscar Wilde, Virginia Wolfe, Gertrude Stein, EM Forester, and countless modern writers, philosophers, artists, and actors, as well as the odd major scientist (Alan M. Turing). We could probably add Shakespeare, Shelley, and Leonardo Da Vinci to the list, and some people would even throw in Christ.

In other words, we invented Western Civilization. If anyone has a right to take it apart, it's certainly us.

(Let it never be said that I'm one-sided in my arguments. It's true that a queer painted the Sistine Chapel, but American fundamentalist protestants probably have the lock the black velvet Elvis.)

Comments

[helenseidolon.livejournal.com]

Not to be picky but...

Caesar I've heard before (but disagree with). I've never heard that Augustus might be gay or even have a single homosexual relationship. And psst - you left off Alexander.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

True enough about Alexander. For Caeser, I'm going primarily on the the relationship with Nicomedes of Bythinia, though there were, of course, Suetonius' charges in Divus Augustus:

LXVIII. In early youth he incurred the reproach of sundry shameless acts. Sextus Pompeius taunted him with effeminacy; Marcus Antonius with having earned adoption by his uncle through unnatural relations; and Lucius, brother of Marcus Antonius, that after sacrificing his honour to Caesar he had given himself to Aulus Hirtius in Spain for three hundred thousand sesterces, and that he used to singe his legs with red-hot nutshells, to make the hair grow softer. What is more, one day when there were plays in the theatre, all the people took as directed against him and loudly applauded the following line, spoken on the stage and referring to a priest of the Mother of the Gods, as he beat his timbrel: "See'st how a wanton's finger sways the world?" [a double word-play on orbem "round drum" and "world," and temperat, "beats" and "sways"].

Which is my source for Augustus as well. Who was it who gave Julius the epigraph "Husband to every woman and wife to every man"?

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

Should have specified that the above passage refers to Augustus, though it mentions Julius. Sorry about that.

[helenseidolon.livejournal.com]

I knew where you were getting Caesar from :)

But... Suetonius is a terrible source. No one believes anything he says.

[em-fish.livejournal.com]

Seconded. We learned in Latin that half of the crap that those Roman blowhards had to say was tabloid journalism at best and outright character assassination at worst. For more examples, see Ovid. That guy didn't like anyone.

[jenjoou.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, although if anyone ever actualy got the right to look at this list, I'd keep Christ off it. Could you imagine the reactions? ...actually keep it on, I've never seen anyone's head explode ;)

Also I'd like to add to your list, my favorite monarch Ludwig II and at least half the Japanese male population before 1868 (I don't know about lesbians... no one talks about it): everything from Buddhist monks, samurai, emperors, shoguns and actors. The jesuits were appaled. Their diaries are pretty funny. ;) Modernity and western influence changed that a lot but a lot of important historical figures were at least bi. Oda Nobunaga and Mori Ranmaru are a popular couple. And there are a lot of stories about about the Shisengumi...

But no matter how many names we come up with, I don't think that would change their minds. They're annoyingly stuborn.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

Ludwig II of Bavaria? He's one I'd never heard about.

The Jesuits were frequently apalled. In North America, Joseph-François Lafitau saw it as his business to chronicle the "berdache". Doubtless the horror at pagan ways was a quite a fundraising tool for the Jesuit mission -- that's often what these official communications were for.

I only know a little so far about same-sex love in Samurai culture, though I've read a little bit about Japanese Buddhist monks.

[jenjoou.livejournal.com]

Yes, Ludwig II of Bavara was gay. He never married and had many relationships with young military officers. The longest and most famous was with his equerry Richard Horning.

As to same sex love in Samurai culture, it was pretty common. They basically thought that love of women would make them weak whereas same sex love made them better samurai... well, it's a bit more complicated then that but that's the gist of it. I wrote a paper about it last year, it's pretty interesting. :)

[montrealais.livejournal.com]

Ludwig II -- isn't he the one whose tyrannical father had his lover's head cut off?