Down from the brink...

[felis_ultharus]

Three hours later, and I'm doing a lot better. I just nearly snapped when I read about that blow to Medicare. Plus I got into an argument with a right-winger on the SDMB this week, which is never good for my disposition. I have a hard time keeping calm in a political argument.

The Intergovernmental Affairs minister is talking about using the "notwithstanding clause" to fix the problem (never thought I'd be glad to hear those words). Plus, on the larger level, the latest polls include good news: since the last poll I saw, the Conservatives have dropped 4 points in popularity, and the NDP have risen 3. The two parties are now neck and neck. If the election were held tomorrow, we could conceivably form the opposition and get the country on track.

A long talk with Matt, and animé helped. We saw two episodes from jenjoou's shounen ai sampler. The first was called Loveless -- visually amazing, very surreal both in image and storyline. The cat ears and tails are a strange touch. I think I'd have to see more.

The other one was Meine Liebe. I'm convinced they spent a month on every scene -- the level of detail is dizzying. For the story, I'll wait and see. It looks like it has the potential to be very convoluted or very interesting, depending on how they take it.

I liked it, though. The voice actors helped. Japanese voice actors are worth listening to, while English ones all sound like they were rejected from porn films for lack of acting skill. This one had a couple of my favourites -- the sibillant friendly-touched-with-danger voice of Akira Ishida (best known as Kaworu Nagisa from Evangelion), and über-genki voice of Takahiro Sakurai (who's also Yuuri from Kyou Kara Maou, and who'll be Cloud Strife in the eagerly-awaited Advent Children).

I'm not sure if he's right for Cloud -- I can't imagine Cloud's voice like that -- but I'll wait and see.

On top of it, they have my favourite voice actor, Tomokazu Seki -- aka Shuichi from Gravitation, aka Touji from Evangelion, aka Dee from Fake, aka Kyou from Fruits Basket, aka Kamui from the X movie. I can even forgive him for having been in those two awful, sprawling Yuu Watase soap operas -- Fushigi Yuugi and Ceres: Celestial Legend.

The only way to make that lineup better would be to throw in Megumi Ogata somewhere -- she's best known as Shinji from Evangelion and Sailor Uranus from Sailor Moon. She played both roles at the same time in 1995, both of which had queer subtext, and was quite irritated when she heard that they edited it out of Sailor Moon (Her exact words were, "What are you afraid of, my cute American kittens?"). She played opposite Akira Isheda in Evangelion, and she played the boyfriend of Tomokazu Seki's character in Card Captor Sakura.

Or so I hear. I haven't seen it, yet. Canada Customs won't let the uncensored version of Card Captor Sakura into the country because it portrays one little girl who has a crush on another little girl >_<

But I better leave this off before it turns into politics again.

Comments

[seal7.livejournal.com]

I can't believe you're liking all this bad anime that supports itself off of its nice visuals ONLY.
.....

*shuts self up before he goes bollocks about it*
*it being the anime not you liking it*

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

Well, I've only seen one episode each, so far. Pretty much all I have is the visuals and voices at this point.

I don't think I liked the first one, though. I liked what little I've seen of the second.

And as you reminded me recently, censoring yourself is not good. I'm holding you to that, too ^_^

Besides, I respect your opinion, and frequently agree with it, where anime is concerned.

Any opinion of Sukisyo and Tactics? They're our next two on the sampler, and we haven't seen them yet.

[seal7.livejournal.com]

Well I dropped each of them really really soon because they made my mind bleed.
I might have given Meine Liebe a chance if not for their HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE usage of German words. They named each of the characters AND places COMPLETELY IDIOTIC NONSENSICAL THINGS and it made me so furious I couldn't bring myself to watch any more, not even for Akira Ishida. Kyou Kara Maou did a good job on *that* at least. At LEAST it named its characters REAL NAMES. And things.
Besides that it looked exactly like all those other pseudo-gay shows; a poor plot and a lot of pathetic blue balls syndrome.

As for loveless, yes, the visuals were amazing. It's excessively pretty to look at. But I personally resent any show where characters proclaim their undying love within the first ten minutes of meeting. It's just so.. ugh. So FAKE. Such OBVIOUS bullshit. You KNOW then that it's merely a show written for shallow boylove and its fans, who don't care about anything being portrayed realistically, character development, etc.
So yeah, I hated that. And the plot is very much a 'wtf' thing. .... Just, ergh.

I haven't seen Tactics, so I can't say anything about that one.

As for Sukisyo, I actually finished that one - it's not that long, 12 episodes I think?
It's not very good if you judge it critically. The humour was just *horrible* sometimes, but at other times it actually got giggles out of me- they play stereotypes a lot, like the uke in the as-good-as-married gay couple basically being a woman with a male body (in behaviour, looks, etc... his name is NANAMI for crying out loud. Oh, it's Akira Ishida again, btw - the seme is Shinichiro Miki, who is Allen in Escaflowne and Aizawa in Gravi (that's the guy who raped Shuuichi, I think), among others). The plot is... well it's hard to judge, the very core of it is really well-done in my opinion, but some of the fillers and sub-plots are quite annoying.
On the whole it's probably low quality (sadly that goes for the animation as well), but there were a number of things I quite liked about it. It's ok for a watch, I suppose.

>_>
Don't kill me.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

"I might have given Meine Liebe a chance if not for their HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE usage of German words. They named each of the characters AND places COMPLETELY IDIOTIC NONSENSICAL THINGS and it made me so furious I couldn't bring myself to watch any more, not even for Akira Ishida."

That's not going to be so bad for us, since our German isn't so great. But I'm used to awful usages of English in anime, and we've already ben introduced to Von Marmalade. After that, I doubt it could get much worse :)

(What is it about marmalade? There's Gravitation's worst song, "Spicy Marmalade, too.)

"Besides that it looked exactly like all those other pseudo-gay shows; a poor plot and a lot of pathetic blue balls syndrome."

I understand what you mean, although it's not nearly as bad as Saiyuki. That series is the worst tease imaginable. Every episode is dripping with the world's most extreme homoeroticism -- hell, the opening credits have an all-male leather-and-ribbon bondage scene, not to mention disco dancing. Four guys, on the road, flirting with each other...

...and they don't even get as far as Kyou Kara Maou had by the second episode.

"As for loveless, yes, the visuals were amazing. It's excessively pretty to look at. But I personally resent any show where characters proclaim their undying love within the first ten minutes of meeting."

That got me, too -- a little fast. The battles were a little off, as well. But I might watch more of it just for the visuals. Not being able to draw myself, I adore beautiful artwork.

(I got frustrated again today, because I keep having ideas for a webcomic. Today, I tried to draw it -- I was desperate and had to get my ideas out. I spent hours on the first panel, and it still didn't work. Unfortunately, it's the kind of text that won't work in novel or short story form, but I can't create the pictures for it. I guess that's why I'm having such a visuals day :/)

"It's just so.. ugh. So FAKE."

Actually, Fake sometimes had a plot, in between Dee and Ryo kissing ^_^

*dodges whatever is about to be thrown*

"Such OBVIOUS bullshit. You KNOW then that it's merely a show written for shallow boylove and its fans, who don't care about anything being portrayed realistically, character development, etc."

Maybe intended as an antidote for the blue-balls anime? Maybe the people who write Loveless should be permitted to write every fifth episode of Kyou Kara Maou and Meine Liebe?

*has funny mental image of the plot disappearing every five episodes as characters go into heat*

">_>
Don't kill me. "

*best Darth Vadar voice*

You shall not be harmed ... this time ....

;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously, though, since you've seen so much more shounen ai than I have, I turn to you. Most of the "shounen ai" I've seen has it only as a subtext (Yami no Matsuei), or at best, a minor sub-plot (Kyou Kara Maou). Pretty much the only front-and-centre, main-plot shounen ai I've seen is Gravitation.

So how about it? As I said, I trust your tastes. So, a list: top three shounen ai you've seen, discounting Gravitation if it would be there. Then I'll hunt them down. With jenjoou, Montreal's shounen ai goddess on my side, I should have little trouble tracking them down ^_^

[seal7.livejournal.com]

Well yeah, you probably couldn't care less about the names, but you probably see how it kept me the hell off. Von Marmalade. I remember that. OMGARGHGRAR *flails >___<* How COULD they. UGH.

Now, I have never seen Sayuki so I'll take your word for it, however I believe Sayuki is despite all not designated a 'shonen ai show' per se. Like Gravitation is, for example. Or where it's a fixed part, like in Kyou Kara Maou. Could be wrong there though. I usually don't mind nothing ever happening in shows that are centered on something else (ie. if you ask someone 'what is this about' and their first reply will not be 'it's gay. a lot.' then it is centered on something else.)

And I'd like to disagree that it's only 'subtext' in Yami no Matsuei. "If you have nothing to live for then live for me" is pretty blunt. As is Muraki when he's like 'let's fuck' to Tsuzuki on numerous occasions. .... Ya. )

Can't Matt somewhat draw? Maybe he can spare an hour to help you make a panel :P

And yeah. I knew you would cross-refer to Fake there -_-;;;; SO PREDICTABLE. SHAME ON YOU. *throws something non-pointy after you*

And I don't think it's intended as an 'antidote' at all, because I'm pretty sure we'll never get to see a whole lot of 'action' there either.

You shall not be harmed ... this time ....

You are too kind sir @_@ *cowers in fear*

As for that list... I'm afraid I'll have to completely let you down there because I can't cut a new show out of my ribs x_x Gravitation is extremely standalone in that respect. And you know the other good ones. Yami is good, Fake is good. And that's it.
Even shows like Sukisyo and Meine Liebe or Loveless are very very new... either from this year or late last year. There *are no* good shonen ai - centric series besides the ones you already know, as far as my knowledge goes.
Most animated shonen-ai or yaoi is in movie/OAV form... and even most of THOSE are extremely bad (yes, some of them do have beautiful art though). I think Kizuna is alright there, and there were one or two others that I liked and that I can tell you about if you want but yeah. No series.

The best shonen ai, IMHO, is *always* in series that are centered on something else. Where it's only on the side, or subtext, like in the X/1999 series, or Fruits Basket. Most of those have a canon gay pairing or character and some others that are full of innuendo but never confirmed, and where the topic is probably not romance in the first palce anyway.
I can name you a few more of those, but as I said... they are good anime in the first place, and good shonen-ai only at the very side.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

"Now, I have never seen Sayuki so I'll take your word for it, however I believe Sayuki is despite all not designated a 'shonen ai show' per se."

I'm not sure how it's officially marketed, but it winds up in all the shounen ai circles, as well.

That's not totally off base. The guys do flirt with each other. A lot. But it's all meant as a joke. The opening and closing sequences are clearly designed to draw in the yaoi crowd. Here's the second season opening sequence (http://www.gensomadensaiyuki.net/ost/video/still_time.rm). Take a look and see what I mean.

It really had us thinking it would turn into something eventually.

"And I'd like to disagree that it's only 'subtext' in Yami no Matsuei. "If you have nothing to live for then live for me" is pretty blunt. As is Muraki when he's like 'let's fuck' to Tsuzuki on numerous occasions. .... Ya. )"

That's true. It's been awhile since I saw the anime. Nothing really happens in the first five manga -- well, nothing between Tsuzuki and Hisoka -- except subtext there. I'm still waiting for the other issues.

"Can't Matt somewhat draw? Maybe he can spare an hour to help you make a panel :P

He might, though he's often busy. The kind of commitment needed for a webcomic is enormous, and long-term, and I doubt anyone else would get it similar to how I have it in my head.

And yeah. I knew you would cross-refer to Fake there -_-;;;; SO PREDICTABLE. SHAME ON YOU. *throws something non-pointy after you*

Hey, you shouldn't have thrown that one my way if you didn't want me to catch it ^_^

I've never seen Kizuna, though I've heard a lot of good things.

I guess I have to wait for the next generation -- the Gravitation generation -- of shounen ai to come out. What I'm looking for is an antidote to the North American stuff, I guess, where we're either monsters or angels, with nothing in between. The characters in anime tend to be people first.

I'd just like to see more than one where the guy gets the guy in the end, I guess.

I have high hopes for Kyou Kara Maou, though I know you don't. I'm really enjoying it -- after episode 26, it started to get a plot that I'm enjoying. Which probably ties in with what you said about "centred on something else."

I like the Yuuri/Wolfram pairing, too. My favourite coupling -- kind/sweet/inept with hotheaded/proud/angry. And having them engaged to be married is a bit more than subtext. I'm hoping they do standard anime plot #416 -- the arranged marriage that turns into a love match.

Also known as the Akane/Ranma plot :)

I like it, too, because of some the things I see mocked/parodied in it. I don't think you ever saw Fushigi Yuugi, but they're defintely making fun of that, a lot. I can also see the influence of the Harry Potter YAOI doujinshi, there -- Wolfram is suspiciously like Draco, and sometimes seems to quote him (though Yuuri is too nice to be Harry, even if he looks like him).

Of course, you could be right about it -- given the track record of these things, you've got history on your side. But I'm hoping that (like Fushigi Yuugi), the romance just develops slowly amid the adventure. And I'm not that far along -- there were 52 episodes last time I checked, and apparently they're still in production. At this rate, it's going to beat Ranma ^_^

[seal7.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh. Yeah I see it, could be worse tho :P
That's a pretty cool opening, too.

I think that in the end of Yami they sort of got together... no? Okay, I haven't read the manga, but I was just told that there's a scene in vol. 2 or so where Tsuzuki undresses at the pool and Tatsuya goes all *nosebleeeeeed*... so there's something at least >.>

Well, I'd offer on the comic, but I can't draw backgrounds worth sh*. And yeah, I probably wouldn't do your head justice either.

I saw an eps or two of Kizuna with Matt at yaoicon, while you took some alone time. It was pretty hilarious. The good thing is that you don't have to wait for the guy getting the other guy anymore, because the main characters are already in an established relationship.
And yeah... I'd like that generation to pick up already, too.

I've seen up to episode 42 of Maou by now, and nothing ever happened. Except the usual tidbits of Wolfram getting jealous, being clingy and Yuuri resting his head on his leg when he's unconscious after turning into the Maou. And I doubt they will ever go there. But alas, yes, you knew that. I loved the pairing too. I had a real adoration for Wolfram, I like them blonde and bitchy. Like Draco XP;
But ya. .... It goes as it goes -.-
If it turns out to be the Ranma/Akane plot, then I shall readily revoke my badmouthing the series.
(By the way, ask GenericAnimeFan who watched KKM what it's about. The answer will be 'it's gay. a lot.'. Saying this from experience. I've overhead that one on IRC a couple dozen times.)

If you want another story where the guy gets the guy in the end, then I guess you really should try to get your hands on uncensored Card Captor Sakura, because it happens.
Here's a very surreal anime movie with shonen-ai+happy end: Ryokohunohara Labyrinth. I really enjoyed that one, despite it's utter weirdness.
And the most recommendable series with innuendo to no ends and one confirmed gay pairing (though focus is elsewhere) would be Get Backers.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

"I think that in the end of Yami they sort of got together... no? Okay, I haven't read the manga, but I was just told that there's a scene in vol. 2 or so where Tsuzuki undresses at the pool and Tatsuya goes all *nosebleeeeeed*... so there's something at least >.>"

True, but that is more subtext. Loud subtext, but still subtext.

('course, we all know what subtext is an anagram for 0_o)

(And I have to agree with Yoko Matsushita's comment from the third or fourth book -- I love a man who looks good in a hakama ^_^)

"Well, I'd offer on the comic, but I can't draw backgrounds worth sh*. And yeah, I probably wouldn't do your head justice either."

I had an unusual idea for backgrounds -- an idea stolen, actually, from occasional uses in 8-Bit Theatre. It involves taking photos of objects, bluring them, and putting them against a deep background of plain black.

I like the effect. Not sure if anyone else would like it, but I always have. The blurred images make for a background that's simultaneous realistic and dreamlike.

And thank you, by the way. I asked for three titles, and you gave me four. I may break down and buy Card Captor Sakura, si9nce it's easier for an individual to get things over the border unnoticed than it is for a store. It sounds good, if a little sugary.

Kizuna is always recommended to me by people, but I don't think it's ever been commercially released, and being old, might be hard to find.

I've never heard of Ryokohunohara Labyrinth. What's it about?

Of course, you told me about Get Backers, and it's been on my list ever since. I have to say the hair styles look hypnotic.

[jenjoou.livejournal.com]

mmmmmm Hakama.... ok, I'm back. ;)

I've had no trouble getting stuff like Level-C and Skyscrapers of Oz over the border so I doubt they'll give CCS a second glance.

Kizuna is commercialy available. Both the OVA and the manga. But again, it being Canada, they're a bit harder to track down. Although I believe I have the OVA on CD... somewhere.

[seal7.livejournal.com]

Ah okay, if that's still subtext. I'm not sure where the border is, I thought maybe obviously intended, barely otherwise-interpretable things might count for a little more than subtext.
And.... the anagram... ? Omg. O_O *scandalized* I NEVER NOTICED THAT! Bwahahaha. XD

As for doing that to the backgrounds, no. I mean, I've seen it too, and it really can look good. And I guess I'd allow myself to pull it for humorous reasons, but not as a general thing. Because it's just plain cheating.... I'm not looking down on anyone who does it well, but I couldn't do that with a project I'm involved in. -_-

It's definitely sugary, CCS. It's, despite all, still a magical girl show. Should be good though.

I do think Kizuna was commercially released... well, I'm sure jenjoou can help you.

Ryokohunohara Labyrinth is about two boys who are just about to graduate from school and realize their dreams and things. Enter some disembodied girl that lives in the darkness for some reason, who wants one of them to herself. She works to drive the two of them apart, even sets up a ploy that gets the one she wants hit by a truck. He doesn't die there but his soul is knocked out of his body, though his body continues to act like him. He's so attached to the other boy though that his soul doesn't leave but stays there too, and eventually the other boy realized. Etc.
I *adored* their names! They're Hiroki and Kanata. Wah. If I ever did an anime, really, my characters would have to be named that >_>
Um. Anyhow, there's two things this anime doesn't have, which is smut and angst. Therefore, it's rather refreshing, since most of today's yaoi is set on smut and angst. However, as I said. It's weird. There's a random music sequence with a flying school in the middle of it, and the plot is never really resolved - we never get to know who the girl actually is, or why she is where she is, or even why the movie is named that. It's also really old, so I don't think it's available in very high quality... but ya. I really enjoyed it.

And do get GetBackers from your goddess :P You won't regret it. I think the main characters are not a couple but most likely friends with benefits. There is so much official art that has them all over each other in compromising situations.
Like this
or this
or this.
I've heard from people who read the manga first though that the anime is very distracting, since the girls get to keep their clothes most of the time and that takes some getting used to :P

[jenjoou.livejournal.com]

Great pics! Though Ban and Ginji rarely do anything like that within the anime itself. It's mostly in the artwork with suggestions in the story. Although, does this look like a marriage to anyone else?

Now these two are definately more than friends ;)

Yeah, the clothing is very distracting. Plus in the animated form, Hevn's boobs move, very hypnotic. :P

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

Where are those two from?

[jenjoou.livejournal.com]

They're from Getbackers too, just not the main characters.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

"As for doing that to the backgrounds, no. I mean, I've seen it too, and it really can look good. And I guess I'd allow myself to pull it for humorous reasons, but not as a general thing. Because it's just plain cheating.... I'm not looking down on anyone who does it well, but I couldn't do that with a project I'm involved in. -_-"

Ah, well. To each their own. I like the idea of cartoon characters against a somewhat realistic background.

Wow. Ryokohunohara Labyrinth sounds weird. But interesting.

It's also really old, so I don't think it's available in very high quality... but ya. I really enjoyed it.

You have me convinced. I shall endeavour to find it ^_^

I like those pics, though. Especially the first one. I think I can rent that one. It's been ages since I rented anime, since we had to stop two series in the middle (Excel Saga and GTO -- in both cases, the disk seemed to be damaged. It's really jarring to have to stop an anime right in the middle)

[jenjoou.livejournal.com]

You don't need to find it, I have it. :)

And you can rent Getbackers, although ADV hasn't released everything yet. Anyways Lu probably has it :) I have the whole thing on CD if you get impatient and want to see the end though. ^_^

[jenjoou.livejournal.com]

I love Getbackers! Nothing ever really happens though Kazuki (*glomp*) and Juubei are definately more than friends. The ending sequence makes you wonder about the main characters, Ban and Ginji too. But basically it's shounen anime for yaoi crazy girls like Saiyuki. It's good and funny and I'd keep reading the manga just to see when gravity will finally start to work and Hevn's tiny little shirt will stop being able to hold her huge breast... it's mindboggling that she can even walk... Anyways. I have the anime and 9 volumes of the manga for that.

I haven't seen CCS yet, though I am watching Tsubasa Chronicle. So no comments on that.

I do have all the other anime mentioned if you're interested (pretty much any yaoi OVA you could ask though though many are old and bad quality). As well as more of the sample series. I'll admit they're not perfect. Sukisyo it outright silly and I never did watch more than the first ep of Meine Liebe (I am German s think what those names were like to me...), though I am enjoying Loveless. Tactics is mostly subtext like Yami no Matsuei (although I agree Muraki does his very best to make it "text"). But it's a fun story. Plus it's great to see the beautiful, angelic man married to a green blob thing.

The sad truth is however that there is very little good shounen ai anime out there. Most of what is worthwhile is in manga form and a lot of new titles are coming out this year (though we get precious little of that thanks to Canada customs, like I'd let them stop me), I'll keep you posted on that. In the mean time, read Banana Fish. You won't regret it.

The first ep of a new yaoi OVA (Haru wo Daite Ita) came out a while back. It's not bad but like most OVAs of the kind it's pretty plotless. But there has been a lot more shounen ai series lately so I feel hopeful.

Oh, and I don't care what anyone says about KKM, I love it. Especially Wolfram. ;) I do hope they end up happily married but at the moment I think the anime is just going to go on for ever. Maybe I should try to get my hands on the novels... I'm curious...

And it's good to know I've been upgraded from empress to goddess. ;)

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

I've read a little Banana Fish and liked it.

What else is banned in Canada besides Card Captor Sakura and the C-Level manga?

And Kyou Kara Maou started as novels, not manga?

[jenjoou.livejournal.com]

Banana Fish is one of my favorite series.

And yes, Kyou Kara Maou started as novels. A manga is currently in the works though.

What else is being banned? From what I can tell anything from Kitty Press (Level-C, Kizuna, Skyscrappers of Oz), the Be Beautiful line (Selfish Love, Golden Cain). There may be more but these are titles I've tried to get and Ray's computer refused me because they do not ship to Canada. Although Ray, darling that he is, found a copy of Skyscrapers of Oz for me somewhere, I think that was some kind of miracle. Shounen-ai from Tokyopop and Viz are coming through without trouble. Tokyopop is going to start distributing a yaoi line called Blu or something including one of my all time favorites, Love Mode, I don't know if we'll be able to get those yet. I can get DMP titles (and there are a lot coming out) but I need to order them as they're more expensive and stores don't tend to stock them. I think that's it.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

Wow. Thank you.

I was doing a feature story on Little Sisters back in my journalism days, and got to read some of the banned queer-themed lit that someone had snuck over the border. The most bizarre was a children's book without the slightest hint of sex.

There was just a little boy named Daniel who seemed to have two mothers -- though even this wasn't explicitly stated. It was just bizarre.

Since then, I've followed the case, and the history. But I think I've gone into this before on your LJ, so I'll just stop here ^_^

[jc2004.livejournal.com]

Between you and Kay, I never have to read a newspaper to know exactly what's going on in Canada. I've been greatly enjoying Harper's slide. I'm so pleased that they went with a non-strategic knee-jerking wing nut for the conservative leadership. Initially, that had worried me when it looked like there was actually a risk of that nutjob getting in but now that he's dragging the Conservatives down into obscurity with his impulsive and ill-thought-out reflexes, I'm quite pleased that he's in charge of them.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

Well, he was pretty strategic before. So was Duceppe. but lately they've been making mistake after mistake -- like a good swimmer who's suddenly drowning, and doesn't know what to do.

I hope they keep it up. I'm glad Harper is dropping in the polls. As for the Bloc, this is actually the first time Duceppe has made a mistake -- and he keeps making them.

Now, if he keeps supporting Harper, Harper will drag him down with the Conservatives. The big left-wing groups here who support the Bloc are already talking about withdrawing their support, if he doesn't support the budget. And that support is much of what keeps them in power -- left-wing groups have a lot of clout in Quebec.