Something in the water of Cyberspace

[felis_ultharus]

I seem to be a magnet for jackasses on LJ this week.

In one corner, there is the delightful pink_str8jackit, who refers to me as "reactionary" for urging people to vote, thus supporting a democratic system that apparently supports only capitalists. Apparently, activism didn't lead to a legalization of homosexuality in Canada (which s/he falsely claims has only been "decriminalized", not legalized, and then done at the provincial level).

While a Marxist is accusing me of being "reactionary," on the other side of the equation, I have the gay conservative sourdick invading my journal with his troll buddies. They were apparently very offended that I disagreed with him about Harper, and accused me of trying to shut him up.

*waves hello*

This one apparently thinks that Harper won't/can't do anything to hurt us once in power. Not surprisingly, he seems to be leaning Conservative mostly for tax purposes.

This is my first LJ drama. I don't know how to deal with this stuff. I hate both shutting people up and ignoring them -- it implies a lack of respect.

I guess my problem is I don't really know how to deal with people who don't have a modicum of respect for me. You'd think I'd have learned something by now. But I either try to reason with them or explode angrily. Neither seems to do much good :/

Meanwhile, anti_antigay seems to have been invaded by an army of trolls. Just what kind of trolls is difficult to tell. They're either fundamentalists, or queer people pretending to be antiqueer fundamentalists. Mostly it's just stupid.

Comments

[sugar-spun.livejournal.com]

I've never had a troll, I'm almost jealous. (Note to trolls: this is not an invitation).

Just maintain a dignified silence and ignore anyone who posts obnoxiously. If someone feels strongly enough about an issue to be offensive then they're probably not going to listen objectively to your reasoning and so it's a waste of typing time to try and persuade them. The world's full of people who think differently from one another and it hasn't collapsed yet.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

I know. It's just frustrating because I can usually maintain a rational discussion with someone whose views are polar opposite of mine. It actually really bothers me when I can't -- either because I'm too passionate about it, or because they're being an asshole.

Even if they're the ones going after me, I still feel like I've failed :/

[sugar-spun.livejournal.com]

The internet isn't a hill worth dying on, even though it annoys sometimes.

[sugar-spun.livejournal.com]

And coincidentally, elsewhere on the internet I just found the two following sayings:

Never argue with an idiot. Spectators can't tell you apart.

And:

Never wrestle with a pig. Everyone gets muddy, but only the pig enjoys it.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

True enough. And the internet isn't a hill worth dying on.

But I still have trouble ignoring the fact that the people I'm interacting with here are people, on the other side of their computer screens. I just wish some people (like our trolls) would be conscious of this fact as well.

[sourdick.livejournal.com]

To be fair, trolls are people who come in with the sole intent of causing trouble, whereas I came to open a discussion outside the realm of the public posting. It was nice of you to not delete my of my comments, but I don't think I have been impolite or rude in any significant way. Disagreeing with someone isn't trolling. :/

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

Nope, it's not. But your buddies certainly were trolling, extremely impolite, and extremely rude.

I think our posts were passionate, though fair, on queer_mtl. Here, though, I've felt constantly attacked. This is my space, and while prefer to keep my journal public, having doombeast here is like holding an open house and being assaulted by one of the guests :/

If you wanted to "open a discussion outside the realm of the public posting," that was not the right foot to start on. We both feel quite passionate about our views, so it requires more effort, not less, to have a calm discussion.

[seal7.livejournal.com]

a) Ban their asses. Alternatively, delete their comments, screen them, flame them, troll them back, get someone who's used to it to troll them back, etc. Or if you really want none of that just ignore them.
There is nothing else to do when someone just wants to sputter shit and doesn't actually react to arguments, has no respect at all and so on.
b) Submit to some wank community for them to be laughed at.
c) Don't let it get to you too much. Teh internets are serious business after all right.
You don't have to deal with them in a reasonable way at all. I realize it's about an issue that is serious to you, but obviously they're just not using their brains, if they have any. Try not to pay it too much mind and move on, it happens to all of us >_>

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

I know. Thank you. I'll keep banning and deleting to a last resort, but for now I'll just try ignoring.

[infinitecomplex.livejournal.com]

I've dealt with LJ trolls a time or two in the past. My recommendation (if you want to keep your journal as a whole public, which I'm assuming you do) is to either screen or block comments from people who aren't on your friends list. I think you did pretty damn well on reasoning with them in the last entry, especially given how much they were trying to provoke you, and their threat to have you "banned from your own LJ" rings very hollow - these people obviously don't have a clue about what the lj_abuse team actually take seriously, but a disagreement over political views ain't it. If anything they're closer to the line with the invasion and deliberate provocation, but even so I doubt lj_abuse would do anything about them when you have your journal open to public comments. If you set your LJ to screen comments from everyone who's not on your friends list, it will give you the chance to delete trolls like this at the source without having to get into a back-and-forth with them.

If they persist, let me know and I'll put you in touch with fordarkness, who's on my friends list. She works for WHOA (Working to Halt Online Abuse) and she can give you some great strategies for dealing with assholes like this who have nothing better to do but try and start a personal flamewar.

*hugs*

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

I think I'll just try ignoring them for now. I don't want to close down options (like anonymous postings) because there are at least a couple of non-LJ friends reading my LJ, and I'd like them to have the opportunity to post :)

Peace be with you!

[pink-str8jackit.livejournal.com]

Reactionary, as in applying a negative view to whatever you don't like or agree with, not in terms of your politics. Never have I criticized you or your politics as being reactionary. Never. Reread. You seem to be applying that problem you've been having with, yikes, "sourdick" to me. Stop seeing things that are not there because you're hurting yourself, unwittingly or not.

Not once did I say you should not urge people to vote. Reread. It's convincing _the whom_ to vote _how_. Huge, huge difference. It seems you decided to ignore that important part all the while weaving it into an anti-democracy issue. It couldn't be the farthest. I would love to discuss more about _the whom_ and _how_ with you, and others, if you would stop reacting and take a deep breath to process better. In the present, we can only both conjecture as to the future, and that's where opinions are always equal.

Marxist? Is this a term of contempt for you? A snarl word? Provocation? Call me what you want, for I will support your free speech and never deny you your own emotions. However, the latter seem to be causing you distress. I don't "dare", as you write, to express myself - I just do. As for calling myself a Marxist or being one, I would say that I do not and am not although I couldn't care less because labels are arms, especially in the games of nationalism and identity politics.

It wasn't solely, as you purport, activism that led to the decriminalization of homosexuality in Canada. There were many factors, particularly the suffering of Everett Klippert (who has yet to be(come) an activist or icon) and discussion stemming from newspaper articles published on the subject of Klippert's and others' suffering. It was much greater than activism. It revealed society's true colors, which, in turn, were tapped into by young leadership -- that of Trudeau.

I only wish you peace and serenity in your life and that any challenge should become an impetus for improvement. I ask for nothing in return save for respect. Need I remind you that "asshole" is not a term of respect but of contempt. Free yourself from your hate, disdain, and sadness.

love always

A copy of this compassionate message will be posted elsewhere, should you decide not to share it with others by deleting it.

Re: Peace be with you!

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

I may be completely misinterpreting you, but, to be fair, you seem to have a lot of trouble expressing yourself in this medium.

When you said,

"Last minute efforts can't change generations of batiked bigotry. If people on the left were more radical, involved and concerned, this would not be an issue."

and,

"Let's destroy the closet once and for all. Liberation starts with the self."

In the context of voting, I responded by saying that last-minute efforts could influence the vote. Then you said,

Those (capitalist) laws do not protect the millions of under-18 queers who do not have a job or own property, etc. Nor do they protect them or any 18-and-over queers from getting their heads bashed in, or any straight person accused of being queer for that matter. You may choose to wait and focus only on legal framework while letting the social stuff slide.

Since I'd never said a word about "letting the social stuff slide," I interpreted this to mean that you thought the legal framework and government were completely irrelevant. In fact, you said,

"whining to lawmakers is flat out lazy."

Now, see, I've got a few close friends who are only to keep their partners in the country because of same-sex marriage. While Immigration Canada is willing to accept couples who've lived together for a year as common-law for purposes of immigration, it is very hard to live together for a year if you're poor (as most of my friends are) when one partner can't get a job or welfare.

I don't want the partners of my friends to be deported :(

Legal work without social work is dangerous, because that leads to the risk of a backlash. But social work without legal work is equally dangerous, because the state can and will use coercion if laws arebn't allowed to change.

But if these were our only differences, we could discuss and debate them. Fine. My real problem with you is the way you talk to me.

Before I ever called you an asshole, you said the following to me:

You may choose to wait and focus only on legal framework while letting the social stuff slide.

(I never once said I was making that choice)

Wake up.

(I hate being spoken to like I'm four years old -- have some respect for others)

Assimilation starts first in your head. Focusing on laws and relativizing to only your life/personal interests is assimilation.

(From two posts, you decided I was assimilated. And radical anti-assimilation is as much a form of conformity as radical assimilation. I've tended to prefer to pick and choose whatever feels most right to me, though I've tended to go against assimilation for the most part, being a social democrat environmentalist who's big on queer culture and queer literature.)

(Continued next comment because of LJ comment limits...)

Re: Peace be with you!

[pink-str8jackit.livejournal.com]

You've misinterpreted so much. Do you realize this? It's blatant to everyone else. That's why the others mocked you; they saw what you haven't. It's sad that you should find yourself in such a position and in such a public space.

Again and again you apply tones and attitudes that aren't there, plus you don't realize your verbal violence and aggressivity. It's almost like a mathematical function. You're blaming me for your use of "asshole"; no one forced you, urged you, whatever. It's THE SAME behavior as when rapists blame beautiful women for sexual assault. In this respect, you ressemble a masculinist more than a queer. That's certainly the truth, regardless of what you may feel or perceive.

As for immigrants, I'm one. Until you yourself emmigrate somewhere, you should never speak on our behalf. Plus, it was very easy for me to be in a relationship, live together and not work. Sorry about your friend, though there are several cases like mine, regardless of the country of origin, who had quite an easy time. Your blanket statements to support your feelings are flawed. Use logic, not false appeals to authority or singular accounts.

You seem to be a very hurt person. I hope you can show a modicum of empathy instead of throwing stones at people whose ideas you don't like. Is this a defense mechanism? All I can say is that if you go around expecting people only to treat you like a four-year-old, then maybe that's what you perceive them to do. Become more social. Break out of your Information-Highway Rage and socialize, that's if you don't hurt anyone.

I wish you well, as I always have and will. My previous messages attest to this. I sincerely hope that you do not belong to a religion or adhere to a personal philosophy that includes karma or automatic retribution, especially of the three-fold kind, for if you truly believe, your are wishing ill-will only unto yourself. And quote me logically as well as citing the indications of possiblity and good will. You seem to have disregarded the latter.

Heal yourself.

love always

Re: Peace be with you!

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

"However, the day you are discriminated against because you're queer (in housing, a job, etc.) and cannot prove it well enough to make a case in court, don't cry when you realize that laws you sacralized mean zilch. "

(Assumes I haven't been discriminated against in these things -- I have been, at least where job and social services are concerned, and before laws were in place to make my case at all.)

"Here's a little help for you while you're trying to convince those Conservatives to vote Liberal."

(Shows you didn't even read my post -- I'm an NDPer. I was trying to be non-partisan because I have a respect for diversity in the queer community, and while the Liberals don't give a damn about social equality, they're at least willing to concede equal legal rights.

While I hate their economic stance and environmental stance, I'm willing to tolerate them on this one issue. And since I believe that one of the best things about the queer community is its diversity, I'm willing to respect that diversity in others -- including in the vote -- up to a point.


That point is Harper, at which point it means undermining what we've gained.

As for social issues, that's mostly non-governmental work. What governmental stuff there is -- funding for anti-violence projects, youth projects, in-school education -- is all provincial territory. The federal government is only relevant in those things insomuch as it transfers money to the provinces.)

If you can't see, after this, why I called you an asshole, then we really don't have anything to say to each other.

As for deleting posts, I probably wouldn't. The worst I'm likely to do is ignore. I'm a pretty firm believer that people should have a right to say things, even if I don't agree.

[node357.livejournal.com]

Ahh, trollz. My Halo universe is mostly made up of those types. You can't carry on a debate with them. They use voluntary ignorance to stonewall an opponent at every turn. There's nothing else you can really do with them that won't make you feel sore other than deleting their posts and banning them by IP. One day maybe they'll see the light.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

I know. But I think I've decided to ignore them. They thrive on persecution. I think a true troll desires to be silenced. Makes them feel like a rebel.

[felis-ultharus.livejournal.com]

By the way, 'tis great to have you around here ^_^